ABC’s Jonathan Karl says the relationship between Barack Obama and Joe Biden has grown tense. He discussed it during a conversation with Katie Couric. He pointed to a moment in Washington that captured the chill.

Karl recounted how Obama and Biden were at Café Milano on the same night last month. Their security details had to shift to make room for each other. The two men did not cross paths.

Katie Couric said, “They didn’t interact at all, they were in the same restaurant?” Katie Couric asked, “What’s their relationship like?”

Jonathan Karl said, “Really bad. Really bad.”

Jonathan Karl said, “Biden and the people around him very much blame Barack Obama for the effort to push Biden out of the campaign.”

Karl is promoting his new book “Retribution,” which looks behind the scenes of the 2024 election. He said this episode reflects a deeper break. He tied it to campaign upheaval and private pressure.

Jonathan Karl said, “It’s not a good relationship. If they had wanted to see each other, they absolutely would have.”

Karl recalled an earlier flashpoint that angered the family. He said Hunter Biden was upset after seeing Obama take his father by the arm and guide him offstage at a fundraiser last summer. At the time, Biden was still the presumptive nominee, and allies were pushing back on concerns.

Karl described how calls went out after Biden later gave up the nomination. He said Biden dialed supporters to rally behind Kamala Harris. He also highlighted one name that never got a call.

Jonathan Karl said, “I was astounded to hear that the one person he did not call was Barack Obama, the person that really made it possible for him to be president by making him vice president,”

Jonathan Karl said, “He didn’t call him then. Obama did call, I learned, to talk to Biden. He didn’t take the call, and the two of them did not speak for weeks.”

Katie Couric said, “So dysfunctional,”

Coverage of the dinner night surfaced in political press earlier. Karl said the scene fit the pattern. If either man wanted a chat, he said, they would have made it happen.

The setting mattered because Café Milano is a small stage with big players. Security teams making space drew attention to both tables. The lack of contact became the story.

Karl also said multiple people in Biden’s circle fault Obama for internal efforts to move Biden aside. He framed it as pressure that built over time. That, he thinks, explains the icy silence later.

The note about Hunter Biden gave a window into the family’s reaction. Seeing a former president lead a sitting president offstage hit a nerve. Supporters were already arguing that concerns were overblown.

Karl said Biden and Harris worked the phones to secure unity after the nomination shift. Those calls aimed to keep the party from fracturing. The omission of Obama stood out to him.

Karl added that Obama eventually reached out. Biden did not pick up, according to his account. He said the two men went weeks without speaking.

Fox News Digital asked both Obama’s and Biden’s offices for comment. There was no immediate reply. The silence kept the focus on Karl’s claims and the eyewitness details.

The takeaway from Karl’s interview is simple. Two former partners now keep their distance. One night in Georgetown showed the split in public, and the phone records show it in private.